To edit URLs in a traditional way a click on the empty space right beside "Documents"...
... allows to edit the URL manually with the keyboard:
A drop down menu for fast access on bookmarks is available:
Most readers of this blog are already familiar with the URL navigator, so why do I explain something obvious? Well, we currently try to do some improvements for KDE 4.2 and I'd like to get some feedback for our plans. It is clear that the feedback to this blog might not represent the main target user group of Dolphin. However if something is fundamentally wrong, then I'm sure this can be noticed quite fast :-)
Before sharing our plans, I must explain one very important point of the URL navigator: For me the main feature of the URL navigator is the hiding of parent URLs. For example if a bookmark called "My Documents" is created which is represented by the URL "file:///home/peter/Documents", then the navigation bar looks like this:
This is something I don't intend to change, as for purists still the editable mode of the URL navigator shows the original URL in its full glory.
However there have been some requests about a missing "G
So Aurélien Gâteau (= Gwenview maintainer) and I had a discussion about this. We agreed that a kind of "show parent paths" button would be useful, like this mockup shows:
So I tried just to add a "Go Up" button:
and for me this solved two issues:
There is no need to explain what this button does, as people have been used this kind of button since years in file managers. If the URL navigator is in the editable mode and no "Go Up" button is in the toolbar, then this button allows to go up the hierarchy.
So this is the point where I'm not sure how to proceed: Is the "Go Up" button a good solution or do we solve a problem that never existed? Is a kind of "show parent paths" a better approach? If this is the case: What icon should be used? Are there other ideas we are not aware of?
So I'd kindly ask to give us some feedback :-) Please note that I won't reply to any comments to this topic, as I don't want to influence the upcoming feedback.
PS: Some graphic gurus might have noticed that the home-icon is not vertically centered correctly. This has been fixed for KDE 4.1.1.
62 comments:
Hi!
This "Up"-Button solves one of the biggest problems I had with dolphin.
I have a Bookmark "xy" which links to /a/very/long/path/to/cms/themes/blabla because thats where I usually go.
But sometimes I also need to make changes to the cms itself so I used to go to the bookmark, change to edit mode and remove the "themes/blabla" part of the path.
Not very convenient.
I never thought about adding an up-arrow to the toolbar but placing the up-button next to the navigation bar is IMHO much better.
My vote: Keep it!
-- bedahr
"To edit URLs in a traditional way a click on the empty space right beside "Documents"..."
Oh, that makes sense now, on KDE3 version of dolphin to get to the URL you clicked to the left of the path on an obvious icon and as there was no obvious way of getting to the URL on KDE4 I figured it was just broken and so used Konqueror maybe it would be worth while putting it back to the way it was as it was much more discoverable.
I really don't see a need for an up arrow when there is a breadcrumb.
First of all: that's a really good idea. Espacially the changing to a different home directory is hardly possible with URL Navigator.
I would not use the up button. If I am in Documents -> Folder I would expect to end in Documents and not in e.g. Home when I click the up button. It's the behaviour of file managers in the past. Up button gets you one folder up - not several.
The first solution I liked better. It is quite clear what the button will do. Although I'm not sure if it would be better to place it left of the bookmark icon.
An up button would be wonderful. On the other hand, it was only through reading your blog entry and experimenting a bit that I finally realized that the folder icon left of the breadcrumbs was actually more than just decoration. I never associated it with the start of the path :-).
Boudewijn Rempt
How about showing the "Up" icon on the left - and only if there is enough space?
It is mainly needed for cases where you are not in a sub-sub-subfolder.
Hello
For bookmarked places, why not display the full path only when the mouse hovers the breadcrumb ?
Or maybe more specifically, when the mouse hovers the text currently shown, i.e. the bookmark name. That way, the empty space will not get filled by a full path when the user wants to switch to traditional URL.
Of course, the transition would need a nice animation :)
Sorry, I meant:
How about showing the "Up" icon on the right, ...
Hi!
I totally agr(ee, the up button was missing, but why not put an "parent folder" action when you click on the icon that's on the left (i mean the house in this case).
What i think would be a great idea is to put the "parent folder" or "up" action first in the list of bookmarks.
I'm not sure what i mean is very clear though...
keep up with the good work :)
I can acknowledge that switching from Bookmarked_parent/Bookmarked_folder/ to Bookmarked_parent/Other_folder/ is somehow not natural. I can also say that the problem is important since the file manager & navigation path are essential to the feeling of a platform.
Should you remain undecided between 2-3 options I'd say you should make the setting configurable. Does this toolbar support drag&drop buttons?
And now, here are my own suggestions:
1) Can you make Go UP button smaller?
2) Can you make show parent paths something like ">>" instead of > or <?
how about placing the up button on the right?
That may seem weird but I think that the up button is more useful in konqueror for websites.
Indeed, as for my current use, the breadcrumb system is really good. I rarely need to go up the Home folder; in fact, you describe the only case I needed it, with the development environment. However, as you also pointed out, it's a rare usecase, not worth adding a bookmark entry. Why would it be worth adding an up button ? Most of the time, it would be useless as the breadcrumb allows to go up one level; and it could confuse users who wouldn't know if it is a go up one level from the current folder or from the top-level folder!
One of the powers of Dolphin is its simplicity: do not clutter the interface with buttons which would be used rarely or make it configurable.
To conclude, I really like Dolphin and for my current use (CS student, KDE development, normal Internet user etc.) it is really good.
I'm thinking about an other option: in the menu accessible on the Home icon, you could add there a "go to Home/..". As the usecase is rare, it could be sensible to do that.
Thanks for taking care of it :)
Why don't you add a new item to the menu of the first icon in the bar (see the figure just below "A drop down menu for fast access on bookmarks is available:").
I would put
- .. or Parent Directory
- Home
- Network
- Root
- Network
into the menu. In my opinion, this is not obtrusive and provides everything one needs.
What about removing the 'go up' button and replace its functionality with a draggable URL navigator?
So by default, the parent URL is hidden, but it can be dragged into visibility.
Of course this means that navigating up will take 1 drag and 1 click, as opposed to just 1 click when there's a 'go up' button, but for most people navigating outside their own HOME is an exception.
Also, the default state can be made configurable, so that people that nav outside their HOME alot can set the default to the 'dragged visible' state
I also thought about placing it to the right, but then if you have a width of 1400 pixel, it might look strange.
If the up-button is considered a power-user-feature it indeed should not appear as an icon, as you said it somehow is visual clutter. Otoh, it's definitely needed :)
What about middle mouse button on the icon?
Example: Home > Desktop > test
middle mouse button on Desktop could make Desktop > test, i.e. make Desktop the new root. But on "Home" it could mean make one level up the root, as Home was already the root.
...or something similar...
Hi
The feature i want to see in url navigator (aka breadcrumb widget) is 'auto back to breadcrumb' mode.
many times i just want to paste a url, so i double click on the breadcrumb, it goes to text mode, then i paste my url and i press enter.but im too lazy to click on the yellow icon again to make in 'url navigator' again.i'd really want it to go breadcrumb automatically.
@Emil:
> The feature i want to see in url
> navigator (aka breadcrumb widget)
> is 'auto back to breadcrumb' mode.
This is already possible by pressing CTRL+Return. Yes: this is a quite hidden feature :-(
Since I am not sure everyone will read the mailing list discussion :), let me post my suggestion here.
I for one would prefer the url navigator widget to behave more like the GTK+ navigator widget: when you click on a bookmark, it shows the expanded url starting from home, rather than starting from the bookmark point.
For example if I have a bookmark on ~/pictures/2008 named "2008 Pictures", clicking on it from KUrlNavigator would show this:
[Pictures 2008]
While the GTK+ widget would show this:
[<][pictures][2008]
The [<] button expands to show the path from "/".
I think it's better because:
- It's easy to go up within your home dir.
- You always know where you are.
One of the things I hated about windows was the fact that the filesystem was royally screwed up. Desktop was what you reached when you keep clicking up, but its actually in c:/D&S/uname/Desktop. Similar issues happened with My Documents. Personally I dont think its a good idea to hide the path for a bookmark.. If someone wanted the path to be invisible they can always have symlinks... but I for one would be disappointed if when I go to desktop / documents i dont have an easy way to see where exactly in the tree i am and how to go to the parent.
Just my 2 cents
Personally I do not think it's worth the extra clutter. A button on the toolbar with a keyboard shortcut (Ctrl + Up or something) are what I would do if it was my decision. If you're using the mouse already, the distance is trivial, and it makes more sense to have that with the other navigational elements on the toolbar. If you're using the keyboard, the visual aspect hardly even matters, really.
Up button on URL bar is IMHO a step
closer to bloated file manager.
I really like GTK+2 solution that agateau mentioned.
Having a way to go "up" is a very good idea! Adding an "up" button to the toolbar was the very first thing I did with Dolphin.
But I agree with Aurélien: The "GTK+ way" of showing the expanded URL from ~ seems to be more intuitive to me than the current way bookmarks are handled.
I wonder if it would work if you'd put the up button in the menu under the icon at the beginning of the breadcrump bar. Like a button, or even just with the location which is one level up in there. It would take an additional click, but keep the UI clean, and in most cases one needs to go up only once. And even if you need to go up further, the breadcrump bar will show root as main folder after you went up once so that's not a problem either.
Even though I highly appreciate your thoughts and that you are trying to make lives easier, I must admit I'm not _that_ into this button. I didn't use it, so perhaps I'm just missing sth. and don't know about.
But I see the danger of falling back to old KDE behaviour like in "There's a usecase, perhaps rare, but I can imagine it. So let's add another button.". It has advantaged, sure. But I'd prefer to get (or in this case: leave) the GUI as clear and tidy as possible.
As a tradeoff I think I could life with your first suggestion which isn't as flashy as the "default up"-button.
But then again this is just my personal taste and I know I will just use what you preset on my desktop ;-)
Thanks for working on KDE!
I would just put the up button in the main toolbar next to back and forward. That's what I did since 4.1rc1, and I feel very comfortable with it.
I think jospoortvliet has a good idea!
Well, two ideas:
1. Instead of adding that up-arrow to the breadcrumb why not instead add the up-button to the toolbar by default?
Or (my favourite)
2. When you click on the Home icon, you already get a list of whatever is in your places panel. Why not just add Up or Parent at the top of the drop-down list (together with a keyboard shortcut)? Maybe even adding things such as "Connect to NFS/SMB" there. Okay, the Connect to...idea is maybe overkill but otherwise I think it should solve the problem. It doesn't clutter up the interface but the functionality is there should you want it.
Jonas said"
"2. When you click on the Home icon, you already get a list of whatever is in your places panel. Why not just add Up or Parent at the top of the drop-down list (together with a keyboard shortcut)?"
I was just going to write exactly this. I think it is intuitive and does not introduce clutter. It also does not confuse me with regard to which folder I will end up in afterwards since it is e.g. the "home" folder itself. So the criticism of 'going up several folders contrary to expectation' would not apply.
Thanks for all your work, Peter! You are really innovating. :)
Maybe you can use .. > Home > Documents instead of Home > Documents ? The '..' is a more normal (older) way of navigating up in an hierarchy.
i'm pretty satisfied with current state:
if I'm at /home/xx/Documents and breadcrumb displays 'Documents', I press Up button (or alt+Up), breadcrumb starts to display 'home | xx'.
The "Go up" button is one of the things I miss the most from Dolphin.
I second the idea of putting the "go one up" possibility into the places popup menu.
At the moment, it is "If I want to change the base of my breadcrumb, I click the icon and select a new base (i.e. place or bookmark)". So IMHO a "one up" or "parent" option fits in there perfectly well.
I vote against adding any additional visual clutter to the breadcrumb that adds to its width.
To the OT discussion about closing the path view via shortcut: It's nice to know you can close it with ctrl-enter, but unfortunately, this only works if the path field has focus. It would be great if the shortcut would work independently of that.
I agree with the other comments that keeping such an option in the dropdown list is the best way to keep Dolphin simple, clean and fastclickable (which I thought was its USP).
Also I feel these aliases are actually distracting. For example, when at my home folder /home/peter the breadcrumb shows me at "Home" whereas the window title shows me at "peter". It would be better if there was consistency or better yet if we did away with abstractions inherited from the Windows world altogether. If users can't cope with full paths then it is the Unix filesystem hierarchy that should be changed not by covering it up adding aliases all over the place (eg, see GoboLinux)
I know that people here are getting bothered about an Up button, and it taking up space... So I'll propose yet another button! :D
If we have to click to the right of the URL to get editing, why not just put an 'edit' icon there to make that clear? We aren't saving any space without one, because the space has to be there to be clicked... But it makes hidden functionality visible, and that's valuable.
IMHO, if experienced KDE users posting here didn't realise that the URL was editable, and thought that it was broken, then something ought to be done.
When it appeared, I just automatically started using it without thinking - I wanted to get to another user's home directory, and just clicking "up" was completely natural and quicker than the old method of going root->home.
It also doesn't feel crowded, and if I just want to go up one level, my mouse memory can take me straight to the right button.
I think it should stay.
It's interesting but i would prefer that you don't add that. If somebody really wants an up button he could just add the button to the task bar. Also i apologize if this was proposed before but I think it would be nicer if we had an arrow also to the right of the last item and when you click it it shows the folders from that folder. currently you have to do a long click on the name of that to see it.
Hi :)
not sure this is completely related but it deals with quick access to folders.
One feature I always loved with Konqueror is the "Web shortcut", even if I mainly use them for local folders. My main folders are given a text shortcut (DI for "danakil images", DD for "danakil downloads"...) and it's very convenient because I can use them in the minicli, in the pathbar, etc.
It would be cool if Dolphin can use konqueror's shortcut but the problem is that even in Konq, the UI is really oriented towards "web" shortcut (it warns when there is no {@} in the url and so on...). The solution should be to transform the "Web shortcuts" config dialog of Konq into something more generic (for local and web) and to use the local entry in Dolphin.
hmm, ok it's not very clear and my post is quite useless but it was just to say that shortcuts for local folder is a really great (and hidden) feature !
My preference:
add the up button to the toolbar by default (to the right of the back forward)
this is the first thing I do when I install Dolphin
The up button is 'classical' in some way and should be there by default
Well I guess it is there for a reason! :)
A more natural place to put it is the toolbar where it belongs, not to bloat the already thin breadcrumb path bar. Besides, it won't be easy to click in the position suggested (since it will be smaller than usual), you will need some accuracy.
I also like to add that I like the breadcrumbs as is. Perfect.
Great work Peter keep it up!
I also like the Nautilus solution, as Aurélien Gâteau mentioned.
Hello,
I am all for the Up button -- it has always been a favorite featurette of mine in Konqueror.
However, I can also relate with the concerns about visual clutter that have been expressed here.
As a result, I was thinking, would it be possible to replace the folder icon in the breadcrumb with the Up icon on mouse hover only? If at all possible, with a smooth transition, to make it feel more natural.
My concern about this idea is discoverability; but the beginning of the breadcrumb, where the folder icon is, is where the user is likely to move the mouse when in search of a way to go up, so perhaps that concern is unjustified.
Thanks for reading.
Agree with several others here, it makes more sense to put the up button by default in the toolbar. The placement is more logical too, next to the other browsing buttons(Back and forward). No need to invent a new place to put it.
And remember, it's primary a filemanager so the ordering is up, back, forfard. (As opposed to what's optimal in a web browser, back, forward, up)
One more chime in for a special entry called "Up" or ".." or "Parent.." or some such as the first entry in the Places menu that pops up when the icon at the front of the URLNavigator is clicked.
- Solves the clutter problem.
- Coincides with existing behaviour: click to the left to go up in the file system hierarchy.
Oh, and did I say I LOVE Dolphin. Peter, you have a great eye for detail and aesthetics. If you guys want a tagline for Dolphin I'll give you one for free: "Effortless Power". It is the hallmark of well designed products and Dolphin qualifies by any measure.
Hi,
I think the best idea could be 3-state navigator, that is:
first state -- traditional path input panel, the best and only way if you want to past the needed path , or to write it manually.
second state -- current bookmark-oriented breadcrumb, the best if you want ti concentrate on some local area in you file system.
third state: file tree - oriented breadcrumb, allways root-based, and preferably with menu-like crumbs, that is , when you clicks on the crumb and holds, there is a menu with every dir that under the crumb's one( kind of, CopyTo in Konq). this is the best way to go to any sibling/uncle directory.
I have already added an up arrow next to the go back and forth arrows and this works well. Therefore, I think you should not add an additional up arrow but maybe set the one that we can already manually add as default.
I'd fancy a "show full path" button, though I don't know what it should look like.
Personally the first thing I do when setting up dolphin is add the up button, as well as a bunch of other buttons (many of which do not have icons, will we be getting icons for all the buttons?). I personally put it between the back and forward buttons, making it more like a keyboard (I like the balance personally).
I want to add that this is not just an issue with your home directory, it is also a problem with removable media devices. Getting to your /media directory has the same problem as getting to your /home directory, you automatically start in the media device's folder. You either have to navigate from root or use the up button to see that folder.
But as for how I would solve this problem, I have another possible solution. Instead of having a button for going up, which we really already have, I think a button for expanding the breadcrumb would be better. So basically, before the first folder have a small button, perhaps just a ... or some sort of image that indicates expanding. When you click on that it then shows more of the directory tree.
So for instance if the bookmark folder you click is /home/me/pics/Pictures, you start out with ...Pictures If you click the ..., it then changes to ...Home>pics>Pictures. Clicking the ... again changes to Root>home>me>pics>Pictures. So if you are starting from a subdirectory of your home directory, clicking the ... the first time expands the list to your home directory. Clicking again expands to root. Same goes for a subdirectory of a removable media device, it expands to the root of the media device then to root. If you are starting in your home directory, root of a removable media device, or any other directory clicking ... will expand to root.
There should also be a button that appear after you expand it to contract it again. Perhaps something like Root>home>*me>pics>*Pictures.
Alternatively, you could have the > button show your folders, but also have an item at the end of the list to "collapse tree to this folder", probably separated from the rest of the menu by a horizontal divider, which will allow you to hide all the folders above the one you clicked. That way you can manually shorten and length the tree to anywhere you want, instead of needing a bookmark. If you went this route, adding an "expand tree" option to the icon drop-down button to the left of the directory tree instead of having a separate button might make sense. Adding this flexibility would solve all the problems people have been listing and make the tree much more flexible by allowing people to choose whatever starting point they want for the directory tree, and being able to change that starting point easily.
1. Add the Up button back to the toolbar. That' what users are used to.
Sorry but IMHO these "visual clutter" and "some users don't need it so remove it" things are pure artificially invented bullshit. The Up button has been in nearly every file manager for 10 years and it did not bother anyone. People either used it or just ignored it. On the other hand, apparently many users need it but can't figure out that they can put it back in "Configure toolbars...".
2. Why not always display the entire path in the navigator?
- It solves the problem of going up.
- I don't think hiding the filesystem from the user is a good idea. At some point most users have to enter paths or even use the command line. If at least the more interested users unawarely get educated about the structure (even better the paths if there were / signs instead of the > signs) they won't be in trouble. And I observed that simple, not interested users are rather good at ignoring features and UI elements they don't need to use.
3. I have filed a request at https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=166687 about combining and enhancing Konqueror's and Dolphin's location bar.
Hi you are doing a great work. I feel the solution is to simply add the up button to the toolbar by default. Adding it the way its shown makes it look a bit cluttered.
I like the inclusion of an up button, but it just looks out of place there specifically. I'm curious why it isn't placed next to the forward/back buttons like most file managers.
I would really like that go up button. it looks nice and doesn't take up much room. good idea.
Pesonally I like the look of the first mockup. The up arrow seems to cluttered and out of place.
Perhaps the ">" is the wrong icon, but if to the left of the breadcumbs you could have an icon that expands the breadcrumbs to a full path if hidden, or contracts the breadcrumbs to the current directory if expanded.
This gives the user the ability to expand the breadcumbs and jump to the needed directory visually, versus continuously clicking the up arrow until the desired directory comes up.
I think the "show parent paths" button is by far a better solution (I even find the mockup to be perfect as it is). I do see the inconsistency of jumping from bookmark based, to full path; so maybe you could just make that button "jump" to the parent folder (just like you would expect from the "up" button), but at the same time show the parent folder on the breadcrumb (sort of "scrolling¨ to the left of the path, one folder at the time).
hmm I don't really see a need for an up button, I'd just leave it as it is.
as the greatest complain about kde4 dolphin (i would add only the possibility to have a full detatched shell via options instead of the current one).
i like very much the first solution you showed, the mirror icon imho is easily understandable and does thw work!
I just don't understand why there is a home next to the url. It should be in the bookmarks, like it already is...
A simple folder button to the left of the url could work perfectly to show folder hirarchy and maybe go up for a double click? :)
Hi Peter,
OT, but did you get my e-mail re: IconManager? No problem if you've not had time to reply, yet :)
Simon.
@Simon:
> OT, but did you get my e-mail re:
> IconManager? No problem if you've
> not had time to reply, yet :)
No, I did not get an e-mail with this subject.
Hi Peter,
Ok, looks like my e-mails aren't reaching you, so I'll chat via your blog comments, if that's OK ;)
Basically, reading this thread:
http://lists.kde.org/?l=kde-core-devel&m=120307632709389&w=2
I think that a public version of a modified IconManager would be a more suitable solution than the original patch, as:
- It has the cool feature of re-scheduling thumbnailing so that the items currently in the viewport of *any* QAbstractItemView (whether it be detailed, icons, etc) are prioritised;
- Schedules items just added to the directory for thumbnailing;
- With a little work, could be made to give this same functionality to Plasma's Folderview (we'd have to expose some additional methods as Folderview is not a QAbstractItemView);
- Deals with the fading of "cut" items;
- With a little work, can be subclassed so that a client can alter the thumbnails as they are generated and before they are added to the model (e.g. - putting frames around items with "image" mimetypes ;));
etc.
Obviously, the original patch by Jon could be augmented to include these features, but I fear that would be overloading the KDirOperator class somewhat.
If you agree with the general idea of having something based on IconManager moved to the public API for this purpose, please let me know and I'll take the discussion & plans to the kde-core-devel thread.
Thanks!
--Simon
@Simon: Thanks for the update! Yes, I thought already about moving the IconManager to kdelibs. I'll take care to coordinate this myself, as I also have to do some minor cleanups in the IconManager before this step.
Hi Peter,
Excellent news! If I can be of any assistance, please let me know :)
I agree with Dominic: on such a rare (but useful) use case, adding it to the menu on the left of the path (the one with the places) is also usable and doesn't clutter the interface as much.
Dennis Fisher said...
> not worth the extra clutter. keyboard shortcut would suffice.
+1
Is rarely used so why add complexity?
We already have konqueror.
I like having the up button functionality, but don't like the button.
Since the address bar is accessed by clicking to the right of the breadcrumb, why not go up one level by clicking to the left of the breadcrumb in a similar way.
I'm not a big fan of hidden features, I didn't realize clicking to the right of the breadcrumb did anything (brilliant as it is, now that I know its there), as someone else mentioned maybe adding ".." to the start of the breadcrumb would make it easier to find the functionality while not breaking the esthetics too much.
KennV
How about being able to split the window multiple times both vertically and horizontally?
Also you only need the one navigation bar, cirrently if you split the screen you get two, but you can only use one panel at a time and one large bar can display more information than two small ones.
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